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Russell Crowe |
Dear Snuka, I'm glad to hear you do not agree that slavery is ok. Apparently, I am more familiar with the Bible than you, having read almost the entire thing -- even the parts your Sunday school teacher doesn't dare talk about. My friend is world-renowned Theologian named Professor Levinson. He's devoted his life to studying religion, and is a Rabbi, in fact. He graduated from Harvard and has the ability to read the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew -- BEFORE THEY WERE CLEANED UP AND SANITIZED -- CHANGED -- BY MODERN CHRISTIANS. I don't look forward to hearing you justify the following passages from the Bible, a book you believe is PERFECT. Or...are there "contexts" where slave Jews are ok? You'll have to explain which contexts would make God approve of slaves. Exodus 21:20-21 -- When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property. Translation -- You can kill your slaves, they are money, unless they instantly die. If they live a few days, it's cool. ======= Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy a Jew slave, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his slave master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her slave master's, and he shall go out by himself." Translation -- Slave masters can tell people who to marry, and then rip the families apart and keep the slave children. ======= Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." I think that's clear. ======== Deuteronomy 23 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. ====== Now we can all watch as Slavery apologists justify these passages and explain this evil away as "being taken out of context." Sad...sad...sad... There are some beautiful passages in the Bible. And there is some evil in it, plain and simple. There are better books to learn morality from. And many of the Christians who claim to believe in this book aren't familiar with it, ignore the evil parts and don't even actually live by the good parts. Snuka, please tell us why the "God" of this book, or Jesus himself, didn't say something like this -- "Slavery is evil. Give up your slaves. Black people are human beings, not animals. Release the blacks and release the Jews." Oh, and please tell us why the authors of the Bible think the earth is flat, and snakes can talk, and that you can put magical potions in women's vaginas, and if they cheated on their husbands, their vaginas will rot and fall out. And please tell us why the "God" in this book tells people to stone people who have different religious views. I could go on. See, I have read the book. It seems you haven't. Or you have spent a lot of time justifying and explaining away nonsense and evil. Bill Maher says the people who take the Bible literally have a mental illness and need treatment. That being said, I am fully aware many people learn their moral codes from this book, and are inspired by the pretty parts. Why don't we create a new Bible and leave out the evil parts? - Jason |
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Russell Crowe |
Another note --
Most importantly, I am fulfilling my role as an acting teacher. Great actors are critical thinkers. They question everything. They find out what is REALLY going on. They look more deeply into things than average people. Great actors are teachers. My job is to challenge, provoke and wake people up -- as an actor, and especially as an acting teacher. I couldn't care less whether anyone agrees with anything I've written here. What I care about is that you challenge conventional thinking and THINK, THINK, THINK! - Jason |
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Nicholas Cage |
Snuka, I am not afraid to hear any beleifs. This is the problem with christianity. You ignore facts, you ignore truth. You manipulate words and meanings. You cannot be trusted. You use the word "fear", as if to say I'm scared of what christianity can do for me. But you've got it wrong. I am not "afraid", as you put it. In my faith, I don't have anything to be saved from. There is no heaven or hell. I was not born in sin. My GOD does not force me to live in fear of his actions. My God is kind to me, and my people. My God has given birth to the earth and its inhabitants for us humans to live with. The Great Spirit watches over us and blesses us with the fruit of the earth. We have animals to eat, plants to heal us, fire to warm us, and water to clean us and drink from. It is primarily the Christian culture who have destroyed all of these bountiful gifts that the Great Spirit has given us. I respect many Christians because they live as they speak. They are caring, considerate and intelligent, so I am not speaking in specific terms, yet in generalities. But the Christian faith has many flaws. The Bible itself is full of inaccurate events and blatant contradictions...as Jason has pointed out. When asked about my God, I look to nature. My God is all around me. It is not some man who lived in ancient times. You base your whole beliefs on a book, written by man, that is claimed to be the word of GOD. This is simply untrue. If you wish to ask what, exactly is untrue, I will be glad to prove any of it. Yes, there are historical facts found within its pages, but like the Christian faith, those facts have been manipulated by the hands of man for centuries. SO I take no stock in a book that is supposedly written by God. I look to the earth, the sky, and the elements provided by the Great Spirit. |
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Russell Crowe |
JBActors (Jason) -
You don't know me. You don't know what I know and what I don't know. You pick some Scriptures from the Bible that you already have set opinions about and you already have self-serving answers to and use those scriptures to try to entrap me. I know your plan and your tactics. You're going to twist and manipulate what I say if it doesn't fit into your view of the Bible. You're really not trying to listen to and understand what I'm saying. I answered your question but it wasn't the answer that you wanted to hear or were looking for so you close yourself to what I have to say. ----------------- avidactor - I'm glad to hear that you're not afraid to hear about different people's beliefs. You were responding like you were afraid. I don't ignore facts and I certainly don't ignore the Truth. There is more to the Bible then you think and it does take research, study and prayer to develop a greater understanding of it. |
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Russell Crowe |
Dear Snuka,
That is an awfully small response... Please tell us what "context, research, study and prayer" will explain the passages I listed. If I'm wrong about something, educate us... As it is, it seems you are suddenly refusing to share the "good news" with all the readers, once you are asked very tough questions. I wonder if in your heart of hearts, the slavery and penis passages really bother you. Do you have the courage to admit it? - Jason |
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Nicholas Cage |
Snuka, how was my response indicating fear? You do ignore facts and truth. The fact is, All sects of christianity "sell" their faith. You could turn on the tv any time of the day and see 10 or more televangelists spouting "the word of God". Who are these people to say what GOD wants for us??? We're listening to people tell us how to live because it is how THEY interpret the bible. And I don't care WHAT you say, JB is 100% correct. Yes, he chose passages from the bible, to prove to you, that indeed, you were WRONG. Again, you manipulated words by saying what he wrote was "opinion". Yet in fact, it was F A C T. So, as I stated before, you IGNORE TRUTH, you IGNORE FACTS. I don't even need to go into details. Yes, you answered JB's question, but your answer was wrong. You're trying to defend an irrational answer. Its as if you were asked what 1+1 was and you're stating it = 5. You have a vast amount of ignorance that surpasses even the weakest minded of individuals on this planet. Snuka, before you come in here, praising the Lord for all his Glory, you should learn about the world around you. I pass by churches on the way to work, and I see their slogans on their billboards, trying to draw people in to make more money in the name of God. This is the white man's business venture. Do you honestly think the majority of the clergy cares about religion? honestly. Did you know the Pope's bedroom is solid gold? How many pastors do you see driving $50,000-60,000 cadillacs with vanity plates? Its a money-making scheme. Religion=power=wealth. I saw a sign that says, "Let Jesus take your cares away" in the front of a church. Most of them read similar propaganda. I would love for Jesus to pay my bills, make my mother healthy again, get me out of debt, etc. Jesus is not going to do that for me. That is the problem with most of Christianity's culture. You sit on your ass and wait for someone else to take care of you. Jesus is not going to take care of you. Prayer did not save that 11 year old girl from dying when her family did nothing but wait for God to intervene last month. Im sure you've seen it on the news. I think religion has some wonderful ideals, but it is up to us as humans to live those ideals. And no amount of prayer is going to save you. It may make you feel a little better, cleaner, or safer, but in fact, it doesn't change the situation you are in. Now, Im not knocking the faith. I think faith itself has wonderful attributes. Its the way people manipulate faith that bothers me. Everyone is so hellbent on telling others how to live, and if it doesn't fit their model, then you say the rest of us are going to hell. How dare someone say such things!! I don't let it bother me, as I have no belief in heaven or hell, but its still a matter of principles. I'm glad you found a religion that works for you. It doesn't work for everyone. That is what YOU FEAR. It seems you keep backpeddling in fear Snuka. You should take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself what you're afraid of. I think you fear other religions. Why else would you be so hard pressed to defend your own when we never started a battle to begin with. wisheke sheke nekano |
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Anthony Hopkins |
avidactor
I love what you wrote. i am told Hitler is going to Heaven But *I* am going to hell, that's all i need to hear to make me sick BTW i heard about the girl who died, she had diabetes( what a waste, she did not have to die,so Ignorant |
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Russell Crowe |
JBActors (Jason) -
I'm not playing your game. Regardless of what I say, you're going to have a problem with it. I'm not going to entertain your condescending thoughts, attitudes and views. ---------------------- avidactor - Fear is not of God. People believe what they believe. To each is own. I was simply sharing an encouraging, inspiring message that the LORD gave to me. Whoever was blessed by it, then God bless them. Whoever was not blessed by it, then they just need to keep moving on. |
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Nicholas Cage |
Thanks Emmy! yeah, it was a horrible story, and the parents should be put in prison for their actions. I love what you said about Hitler! Well, hey, in his defense, he DID invent a quality automobile for the world to enjoy! hehehe. I find it amusing how so many people want to dictate how others should live. Ah, c'est la vie! |
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Nicholas Cage |
Snuka, I can understand that you were sharing your thoughts on God, but your thoughts were promoting the idea that there is only ONE way to appreciate God. This is where your ignorance lies. Im very glad for you that you found solace in your beliefs. Its a great thing! Im not saying you should be ashamed of what you believe. I will never question your beliefs. I only question your understanding of what religion truly is. You said "Fear is not of God". Does this mean you don't fear your God? If so, great. But the term "God fearing Christian" seems to be synonomous with "honest man". That's where my comments on fearing God came into play. Why fear what supposedly loves you? And why would something that created all the heavens, the earth, the living creatures, and all things want to throw me in a pit of everlasting hell? If God was all powerful, why are there wars? Why do children suffer? Why are there so many unexplained tragedies in this world? Free Will right? With that philosophy, God made man EVIL. If God is all powerful and all good, why would he create his most prized invention to be faulted in such a way? A test? I do not live my life to be saved at the end. Life is not a gameshow where I could win the big prize of heaven at the end. Life is to be lived, shared with the gifts the Great Spirit have given us to use to make the world thrive. One should be good because it is what is needed to make the world sustain, not because of the hope of heaven. But, I say these things in a way that is contradictory to my whole argument of telling people how to live. I say these things because they are MY beliefs. I don't expect anyone to follow my path. It is mine to navigate, and no one elses. I can only speak for myself. I am not here to preach my way, just to give you an idea of where someone else may be coming from. I do ask for God's blessings, for myself, my family and my friends. I know you do the same. So, keep on keepin on, but mind the world around you. |
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Anthony Hopkins |
for the love of god, just don't post it here.
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Nicholas Cage |
Amen to that!  |
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Russell Crowe |
I take the Bible very seriously. I never said that everything in the Bible can or should be taken literally.
In fact the idea of reading the Bible literally is a rather modern idea. It didn't come about until the 1800's along with dispensational theology and all other manner of theological nonsense. The Bible must be read in the context of the culture when it was written. If one reads the Bible literally, he finds contradictions all over the place. If one reads the Old Testament, especially the books deaing with he conquest of the promised land, he gets the impression that God is a mean, cruel and vengeful. Fortunately the New Testament authors and apostles (under God's direction) discarded most of the Old Testament regulations which were a hindrance rather than a help to first century believers. It wasn't the WORDS of the Old Testament that were imporant, but the ideas. I believe that the Bible teaches us principles. Those principles must be used to interpret the Bible. One of those principles is that God loves all equally and unconditionally. We likewise must love equally and unconditionally. Slavery in any form goes against that principle. Discrimination against any group goes against that principle. I think about the civil rights movement. The churches in the south were more a hindrance to the movment than a help. That I feel is totally contrary to God's plan. The question is then why are those sections in the Bible. I believe that those regulation helped a people who had a culture much different from ours to keep from abusing others. Those rules are like a curb to control even worse violations of God's plan. The Bible is complex, vague and difficult. I believe that God has purposly left it that way so that we will have to search for deeper meaning and underlying principles. We can but understand God imperfectly. My life should always be a search to understand God more fully. Trying to find a simple black and white literal interpretation robs the Bible of its meaning. I think the literalists have taken the truths of the Bible and hid them. To insist that Bible must be interpreted literally is much like the medieval church insisting that the Bible be in Latin so that the people would not read it. Each robs the individul of the meaning of God's Word. -------------------- I believe in the Word of God, I just don't think that EVERY word in the Bible is the word of God. God speaks to us through the Bible, and in other ways too! I would be conservative enough to reject the creation of some new, modern Bible from scratch, as though we could make it "right" this time. Inevitably such a "new Bible" would manifest the imperfections, prejudices and sins of our own modern culture. I think we have to live with the Bible we have, warts and all. But we have to recognize the warts. We need to approach it critically. Even Abraham (not to mention Job) was known to have disagreements and arguments with God. We need to seek to be aware of what God is saying to us now. God is still speaking. |
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Glenn Close |
I've been following this thread with great interest, and this is the most difficult statement that you've ever asked us to accept. If memory serves, the Scriptures are the undeniable, unmitigated, perfectly conceived, absolute, LITERAL WORD OF GOD. Every major, well-respected Christian conservative agrees on this singular fact, including the most visible and respected preacher of the 20th century, the venerable Billy Graham. Graham virtually created the phenomenon of massive, televised evangelism worldwide, and voriferously maintains the literal translation of the Bible, holding any Christian who disagrees to criticism. This basic fact has always been a significant, central aspect of his entire 50-year ministry. Alterations in the way true believers worship has always been subject to change from time to time. But in this, all fundamentalist Christians are in complete accord. Any ancient written text is always open to interpretation and controversy. This is the single most problematic and potentially dangerous aspect of the Bible, or any complicated document. Considering such things as personal political agendas, language issues, simple misinterpretation, and out-and-out abuse of the Bible's actual meanings, and you have a subject rife with arguments and disagreement -- exactly what I'm noticing here. I'm sorry snuka, but when you begin to alter or change the "PERFECT, INVIABLE WORD OF GOD" to suit your personal tastes or motives, you lose me. P.S. - In spite of our religious disagreements, I'm still thrilled to see that even when the conversation gets heated, we can still manage to "keep it real." After living abroad for several years, in what other country could you have the kind of free and open discussions that we enjoy here? It's a beautiful thing  "Whatever works." www.robertkim.com |
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Anthony Hopkins |
Robertkim
you make such perfect sence in all you write |
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Nicholas Cage |
And I wonder who God is using as his publicist these days? |
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Russell Crowe |
Dear Snuka,
Please tell us how to take the passages about beating Jewish slaves to death, if not literally. Which figurative context would be just? Please tell us why Jesus didn't say, "Owning human beings is wrong. Slavery must stop." Please tell us why no author of this book spoke out against the other evil sections of the book? If you don't take the book literally, how do you pick and choose which passages to believe in? And if this book is so subjective, please tell us why we shouldn't find other books that are more clear about morality, and that don't contain passage after passage of pornography, violence, hate, scientific nonsense and voodoo talk? I will give you credit for not claiming the book is accurate/literal throughout. Because obviously it isn't. I'm relieved that you don't accept the evil parts of the bible. Snuka, do you know how this book was put together? Do you know it was a political debate about what should be included in the bible several hundred years after Jesus supposedly lived? Tell me you know about the Council of Nicea. Tell me you know that the story of the virgin birth, made up long after Jesus died, was taken from older pagan religions. It was taken, along with various pagan holidays, and this new religion was cobbled together by the Emperor Constantine. But you know that, right? So this book was created by politicians and the Emperor arguing about how to control these crazy Jesus worshippers. But you know that, right? Or maybe all these theologians and historians make up history... Did you know that if Jesus were alive today, Christian leaders would probably murder him? Why? Because Jesus would have focused on the poor, on universal healthcare, against war, against discrimination and bigotry (the right-wing's favorite tool to manipulate Christians). In short, Jesus would be wearing Birkenstocks, tripping on Mushrooms, and protesting in front of the White House -- kinda like John Lennon. And if you don't realize that Jesus was a Jewish hippie who hated government and organized religion, then you have no idea who the historical Jesus was. Read the works of Jim Wallis -- he's the smartest Christian around. I love him. Modern-day right-wing Christians are usually on the side of ignorance and the right-wing. They fight against science and fight against the arts. Notice I did not say all Christians, I said right-wing Christians. I think it's fair to say they are just dumber than lots of other kinds of people. They are obsessed with gay people, obsessed with abortion, obsessed with fighting science, don't seem to care about the poor or the environment. They think big corporations are temples that can do no wrong. And they seem to think that war is the solution for everything, and that God sends us extremist Muslims because of Ellen Degeneres hosting the Emmys. I mean these are "leaders" of the Christian faith? Bill Maher said, a few weeks ago, that if there had been a day care coporation whose employees had molested thousands of children, it would be out of business and the CEO would be in jail, all the executives would. But our right-wing average Joe, Christian President is giving the CEO of the Catholic Church red-carpet treatment. It's shameful. Shame, shame, shame. So Snuka, we're still waiting for you to tell us what contexts makes the above quoted bible passages ok. Face it, there is NO context which makes those evil passages ok. Slavery is evil. And the bible advocates it. - Jason |
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Russell Crowe |
JBActors (Jason),
Quite simply, we cannot take out these "evil" parts because we lose so much history and understanding of the Jewish People. Yeah, a lot of the laws in this book seem absolutely ridiculous to modern readers, and rightly so often. I think it is interesting that you pull the "My friend is..." argument, as it doesn't truly matter what this one "scholar" says, it is technically a logical fallacy (can't remember the exact one, but it is). Also, you seem to not be consistent in that, if we don't take the whole Bible literally, we don't have to follow all of these rules. If we take them out, and just make a book of all of the "pretty parts" we don't have authentic, human spirituality. We lose something that we might not have liked, but we need it there nonetheless. I think the laws also need to be compared to the practices of the contemporary societies of Ancient Israel, which had far crueler practices than these. AS to the issue of slavery, I don't think he is aware of the Year of Jubilee. Nor the widely accepted doctrine of Progressive Revelation. Also, anyone citing Bill Maher in reference to biblical validity is off. ----------------- avidactor, God's Holy Spirit is the publicist. |
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Russell Crowe |
The Bible does not promote or condone slavery. The Bible does acknowledge the existence of slavery.
When we read the bible we have to look at the historical context it was written in. |
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Russell Crowe |
Dear Snuka,
While I appreciate your reply again, I would take note that I've heard all your responses before from other slavery apologists. They are the standard excuses for the evil in the bible. None hold any water. I would also point out that again, you just didn't even bother to respond to most of the important points. Again, this is predictable, although sad. Finally, Dr. Levinson's opinions about the historicity of the bible are not simply his own, nor are his opinions a minority view. Dr. Levinson's opinions are mainstream theological views. You see scholars with PhDs, who actually read the ORIGINAL scriptures and learn about HISTORY, have EXTREMELY different views of the bible than average (ignorant) Christians who "learn" crap in Sunday school. You can dismiss the experts all you want, and average Christians virtually always ignore the research. So again, it's no surprise you excuse all the evil. But I stated no logical fallacy. And frankly, for you to tell me about logic, with your views about the world is ironic. I studied logic in college. I know some will take this as arrogant, but I always scored perfectly on logical reasoning tests -- sometimes I missed one question. Logical reasoning was probably the strongest subject I ever studied in school. Sorry if this sounds rude, but it's true. I'm not at all worried about my ability to think critically. The bible does condone slavery. And anyone who reads it without the need to believe all the pretty, nonsense stories about stars and virgins, can see it. What I hope comes of this discussion, is that readers of these forums go buy an old-fashioned bible -- not the new cleaned up, censored ones. Isn't it funny modern Christians censor the older versions of the bible?!?!?! Buy the older ones, close to the original meaning. Read the WHOLE thing -- not just the pretty parts snuka picks and chooes. Then, read the Quran (spelling subjective). Then, read a Buddhist or New Age Text. I think you'll find the Christian and Muslim texts are filled with violence and nonsense -- along with pretty parts. You'll find that Buddhist texts and more recent New Age texts are generally filled with love, without the evil Snuka says is ok "in context" (the standard reply, which I predicted in my first message on this thread.). Again, I couldn't care less whether anyone agrees with me. I don't need anyone to agree with anything on here. No one I work with is required or expected or pressured in ANY way to share any of my personal beliefs. What IS required of artists is that we search beyond the standard kinds of shallow arguments Snuka puts forth -- that we search for DEEP meaning about what is going on in this world. That we question, question, question... We artists must speak truth to power -- it is an essential function of thee artist. And this is why organized religion and government are often so at odds with artists. Artists seek the truth. Government and organized religionists seek status quo, power, and domination of less educated people. - Jason B. |
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