I agree Ms. Nicklin, 100%.

As far as Miss Stone's comment that aspiring actors spend most of the time NOT ACTING...well to be completely honest, I bet a good deal of that is lack of dedication, or waiting for a silver spoon to fall in your lap. It's a lot of work I know, and sometimes it's exhausting...but let me explain why I feel like this...

Unless you live out in some podunk town, there are always acting opportunities. For one, you can do community theater, which is a fantastic way to work on your chops while growing your resume. Secondly, independent film is growing at an exponential rate, and you'll be hard-pressed to throw a rock without hitting an indie crew. Even if you have to start out small on a set or on stage, you can still learn a lot by watching--learning the ropes and etiquette of a production is an absolute necessity.

And finally, as Sarah mentioned, put together an acting group is always an option. I've been running an acting group for over five years now--I started it in NYC, and have since revived it in Rhode Island. We get anywhere between 15-25 people at our meetings...it's a great way to not only network, but work on your craft and discuss your work in a safe environment. We bring in local directors, Dp's and casting agents to do exercises for the group. We also workshop scripts and do improv quite a lot as well.

It's up to the actor to be proactive when working on their craft (in addition to networking).

If you find yourself in a lot of dead time, then I honestly think you're not being diligent enough about pursuing opportunities.

As both Sarah and I have stated, classes are a great way to learn the basics (or advanced technique for those that desire), as well as revisit if you need to work on something blocking you or if you've hit a plateau. You don't always need to be in a class...that not only costs way too much, but sometimes you can learn twice as much by actually being in a production.

We all hit dry spells...but a great way to combat these dry spells is to create or join an acting group (or troop). Usually winter is pretty slow in my area...it's nice to have a place to meet and work on stuff during the slow times.

If anyone is interested in finding out more information on my acting group, to give you an idea of what might be a good idea for you or your area. This is a fantastic way to always be acting or working on something. If this interests you, have a look at my acting meetup site to give you an example of how it's handled:

http://acting.meetup.com/365/

My point being, there really is no excuse for an actor to not be working on their craft in some way or another (aside from classes). It basically comes down to how much time and energy you're willing to devote to it. Of course, I'm not talking about times when you're sick, or there are family issues or job problems...priorities fluctuate all the time...as long as you come back to it when you're able.

Thank you so much!

^ That sounds like a good idea to me if you can't afford classes and can find a group of like-minded actors with similar goals who are ready to work at the professional level. Interesting how you "leave critical observation up to your acting teacher."

quote:

Are we confusing what the term 'basics' means?

Maybe so. To me, having learned the basics implies having the skills to believably sustain a character in one's casting range within the context of a straightforward contemporary work and the flexibility to take direction. No it's not rocket science, but nurturing those skills seems to be wanting in the high schools. There are SOME high schools - especially a handful of performing arts magnets - that do a pretty good job with it, but what I've seen for the most part from having assisted with conservatory auditions was a lot of mugging, indicating and inappropriate choices from kids who had high school and community theatre resumes a mile long. It was going to take some very good and patient teachers a lot of work to break them of those habits without crushing them in the process. I hope I don't sound like I'm bashing them because I'm not. They were doing the best they could with what they had. It was just obvious that those habits had been encouraged and ingrained and they certainly weren't even close to being ready to work. That seems to be the norm to me. As for most colleges, the CD in Miss Stone's first link is right on. All you have to do is get on YouTube and look around a bit to see that.

Some of those 'habits' are indivisual quirks that make us all unique and special.

Embrace your individuality. Only you know your own truth. Only you can discover that. And it doesn't take a conservatory or college education to do that.

Remember, those teachers are giving you their opinions. We all have them. One CD will love your headhshot or your monologue, another will hate it.

At the end of the day, all we have is what we think of our work.

quote:

Originally posted by amo37:
Some of those 'habits' are indivisual quirks that make us all unique and special.

Embrace your individuality. Only you know your own truth. Only you can discover that. And it doesn't take a conservatory or college education to do that.

Remember, those teachers are giving you their opinions. We all have them. One CD will love your headhshot or your monologue, another will hate it.

At the end of the day, all we have is what we think of our work.

^A simple truth,

few words.

Jim

Some of my favorite actors are quirky, but we've reached an impasse if you are saying that mugging, indicating and inappropriate choices make an actor unique and interesting.

Since when have good training and embracing one's individuality been mutually exclusive?

Good teachers nurture that. Stay away from the bad ones.

What is 'good training?'

Your 'good' training may not be someone else's good training.

Acting is doing. Acting is living truthfully under imaginary circumstances.

I don't believe anyone can teach you how to 'act.' It is an inherent talent. The most anyone can do is coax the talent from you. But there is no 'teach.' What is an 'inappropriate choice?' No such thing. Again. An opinion. How I see a character is my choice. You may say it's inappropriate. I say it is not. You like my headshot.My agent hates it.

There are no rules. There is no 'right way' to learn or study. Unfortunately, every teacher and school thinks they have the right way.

The only 'right' way is the way you work. And you know when it feels right. I am a product of university (BA in Theatre) and studios in LA and NYC. And guess what? While teachers have opened my eyes to many things, the older I get, the more life I live, the more hardships I face and the more I know myself, the better actor I am. But I credit ME with my education. Not anyone or anything else.

There are so many examples of artists, musicians, writers, poets and creative types with no 'training' whatsoever.

If you feel you need 'x' teacher or 'x' school to have 'good training' for you, good for you. But at the end of the day, all we really care about is the product. We don't care how or where you learned to do what you do. We don't care who Celine Dion's voice teacher is.

If you keep relying on a 'right way' you will never find 'your way.' The people who really make a difference go their own way. And yes, indicating, quirks and 'inappropriate' choices work for some people. Again, what workes for you does not work for others. So, we cannot generalize what the 'right way' or the 'right school' is. The only 'right' way is 'your' way.

I figured few words would elicit a lot from you!

quote:

I don't believe anyone can teach you how to 'act.' It is an inherent talent. The most anyone can do is coax the talent from you.

Agreed. 'Good training' is working with teachers who do that and give you tools to help maximize its use.

quote:

What is an 'inappropriate choice?'

It's an actor obviously having no clear sense of the character's objectives within the context of the work. It makes no sense. I think we'll agree that what is 'appropriate' can be a lot of things and brilliant choices sometimes seemingly come out of the blue although what is 'brilliant' is clearly subjective.

On another note, I don't think I ever said a word about the 'right training' or the 'right school.' That's clearly up to the individual. You seem to be interpreting an unintended subtext there.

Well hello and hello...

I think everyone is wired a bit differently for practice, just like everyone tends to be wired differently on preparing for parts.
For me, doing (as been said before) is the best practice, so I am always involved in something, even just a readers theater. Well, I say "always", but every once in a while I take a break and focus on just training.... just taking classes, reading scripts, having some alone/downtime.
I'll even take some time (SOME - as in a week to three weeks) doing nothing with acting, but focus on other creative endeavors... like drawing or writting. Or other things that calm me, like star gazing or hanging in the mountains. I find it relaxes and stretches my mind more, so when I go back into my craft, I feel energized, creative, refreshed, and hungry.

I also make sure I spend time with other actors, just hangin' out, talking, laughing. But I also try and spend time with non-actors - scientists, etc, because it broadens my horizons, my knowledge, and my life experience. It enriches me, but also stretches my abilities as an actor....

oh and film shorts are good practice too.
a day or two of shooting and you get the practice, without a huge time commitment....

Again...well said Amo. I totally agree.

Bad habits...getting into another area here...are things like excessive movement, indicating/pantomiming, blinking too much...etc...etc...these things can be learned or unlearned in school or with training...but they don't *have* to be learned in a classroom setting. You can learn to fix/alter these things on the job as well.

I just think too many people are focused on training training training...name schools, name teachers, resume puff...I think so many actors would benefit from getting out of that mindset and actually working on a production. Most talk a lot of shit, but few are constantly working (and yes, we can all 'work' in one way or another if we put our minds to it).

Do you know how many people I know that consider themselves 'actors'...but when I come to them and say, 'Hey, we need an actor this weekend for background, or a featured extra bit...you might even get a line, want to come?' And they all get excited and say, 'Yes!'...but do they ever show up? Nope. All talk.

If you leave your training to "on the job" training your chances of failure are VERY high. I'm not saying it's impossible, nothing is impossible, it's just VERY unlikely.

One needs to work with the guidance of someone whom already has a deep understanding of the craft. Not someone who is busy lining up shots and hoping the sun doesn't go down.

If you think that you will be able to learn the craft of acting on set, I could not disagree with you more.

The set or the stage is when you put your training to the test. You have the opportunity to see how much of your training sticks and how much hasn't. Then you go back to the drawing board with your coach. In private or perhaps in class.

Professional athletes work EXTENSIVELY in class. They are working several days of the week training, running drills, working closely with their coach. Then, and only then do they show up at game time.

Professional musicians train EXTENSIVELY in class with their instruments. Rehearsing both with themselves and with others. They have vocal/instrument coaches whose job it is to point out missteps and how to work better

Why would acting be any different.

There are a lot of things you can learn on set or on stage. Hitting your mark, working with a camera, lingo, etc.. but unless you are working with PROFESSIONALS the one thing you won't learn, is how to act. And even IF you are working with a professional actor, she/he is most likely not going to have time to show you the ropes. You will have the chance to observe them work, but your witnessing less than half of their process. And you won't get the chance to work with professionals unless you have the training to work your way up the ladder.

I have seen many times on set an actor show up with strong choices, an interesting character, but completely wrong for the scene. And because he hasn't learned in class or in front of his coach how to take direction, the director has to waste everyone's time and give this untrained actor line readings for days. It douses everybody else's creative fire, and doesn't teach him one thing about how to act.

You can do all the indie films you want, do 10, 20, 30 of them at the end of all that "on the job experience" do you think you''ll be a better actor?? Slightly, but not much. You will have just sunken deeper into your habits, your own physicality. But the craft? I don't think so.

That, of course, is all advice to those who wish to MASTER their craft. If you want to be good enough to get into some movies and some TV shows then I'm sure on the job training will do just fine. Personally I don't want to be OK I don't even want to be good. I want to be one of the best there has even been. I want to be able to touch the soul of my audience. I want, when the audience leaves, to be changed. It's not enough for me, if they come out thinking "that was a cool flick".

And it's very unlikely without the proper training you will be able to bring that kind of presence to thee screen.

There are numerous actors with very little training. While I think everyone needs the building blocks, I don't agree with training just for the sake of training.

As a musician as well as an actor (piano, voice) and having studied all 3 disciplines for years, I have the goods and the building blocks. One techer or coach will like what I do, one will not. At the end of the day, it is all opinions. And I have studied with master teachers. And some loved these terrible actors in class and hated those who I believe had true talent.

No what? There are no rules. We all do what works for us. It is not up to anyone to tell anyone else how much training they need or what training they need.

We live in a very subjective world. There are no definite routes. How much training is enough training? When I say so. Not a fellow actor or coach or teacher.

At the end of the day, all that really matters is my opionon of myself. We all get 'trained' by life experience, by doing (acting is doing) and by training. Only we have the right to mix those ingredients.

quote:

One needs to work with the guidance of someone whom already has a deep understanding of the craft. Not someone who is busy lining up shots and hoping the sun doesn't go down.

You don't necessarily learn from the director...or any one individual for that matter. You learn from so many angles, it would be hard to list them all. You learn from yourself, your character, your personal work on the script. You learn from what the director or DP is asking you to do. You learn from the other actors you work with. You learn by being put in a new situation. I could go on and on...I don't expect actors to learn solely from the Director...it's about *all* of the variables on set.

quote:

If you think that you will be able to learn the craft of acting on set, I could not disagree with you more.

Unless your deaf, dumb, and blind...I personally find it impossible *not* to learn something new every time I'm on set. And I'm not just talking about the ropes of set...I'm talking about learning more about myself, more about the craft, emotion, sociology, psychology...something. Most importantly, I try and learn how to *listen.* How to really listen with all my senses. And as long as you keep those muscles flexing, it will be impossible *not* to take something new home with you.

quote:

The set or the stage is when you put your training to the test. You have the opportunity to see how much of your training sticks and how much hasn't. Then you go back to the drawing board with your coach. In private or perhaps in class.[QUOTE]

The 'drawing board' can be you...alone. It can be just you, working out the script line for line, beat for beat. Most of the work done with the script and the character is internal. Once the basics are learned, and the entire concept 'clicks'...it's up to the actor to proactively improve him or herself. It's perpetual, it need not be forced. Once you 'get it'...most of your growth will come from all those silent moments in your head, where you *play* with this alternate reality...make it your own.

Technique can play a big role in how you go about expanding your character and connection with the production...but the majority of the work comes from inside *you.*

Again, I never said an actor should never attend university or classes...I think it behooves any actor to learn the basics in a formal setting...for some reason this idea keeps resonating in this thread...no one is saying that. What I'm simply saying (as are others), is that there is a time and place for it...but it is by no means absolutely necessary.

[QUOTE]Professional athletes work EXTENSIVELY in class. They are working several days of the week training, running drills, working closely with their coach. Then, and only then do they show up at game time.

Professional musicians train EXTENSIVELY in class with their instruments. Rehearsing both with themselves and with others. They have vocal/instrument coaches whose job it is to point out missteps and how to work better

Why would acting be any different.

Great points. Surely this seems reasonable right? That acting is just like any other sport or art form? It sounds reasonable that every art form or expertise requires constant professional training or mentoring to excel?

But this is not the case. I can make an argument on both sides. Do you know how many crazy talented guitarists haven't taken a single lesson? They just pick up the guitar, go through books or videos, and constantly practice (by themselves). When they are ready, they join a band or group (just like a movie production)...they work together for a common goal...just like a movie. They learn in rehearsal, just as actors do when they rehearse.

You don't need 'professional' training to succeed. Everyone is different. Every one learns their own way. If classes are what do it for you, then go for it. But there is no definitive answer as to what makes a successful actor.

quote:

There are a lot of things you can learn on set or on stage. Hitting your mark, working with a camera, lingo, etc.. but unless you are working with PROFESSIONALS the one thing you won't learn, is how to act.

I beg to differ. I won't learn how to act unless I'm working with professionals? How does that work? Is my mind and body completely inactive unless I have someone with a solid resume next to me? As I mentioned before, most of the process of understanding the craft and working on your chops happens internally. If you are diligent about breaking apart the script and your character...and you give 110% during your time on set...you will get out of it what you put into it.

Yes as actors we tend to learn more from people that are better than us...so they say. And when we have this opportunity, we should pay attention. And even if the 'professional' actor doesn't give us the time of day...we can do our duty of being totally involved and soaking up whatever stimuli you can. Watch and learn. You don't have to be buddy-buddy with a talented person to learn from them.

quote:

And even IF you are working with a professional actor, she/he is most likely not going to have time to show you the ropes. You will have the chance to observe them work, but your witnessing less than half of their process. And you won't get the chance to work with professionals unless you have the training to work your way up the ladder.

[See above response.]

quote:

I have seen many times on set an actor show up with strong choices, an interesting character, but completely wrong for the scene. And because he hasn't learned in class or in front of his coach how to take direction, the director has to waste everyone's time and give this untrained actor line readings for days. It douses everybody else's creative fire, and doesn't teach him one thing about how to act.

*Not* the fault of the actor's, and he should never feel bad about this. This is the casting departments fault...whoever auditioned and hired this actor...they are to blame. Don't pin this on the poor inexperienced actor.

A very smart director once said, directing a film is 10% direction, and 90% casting.

A good director casts appropriately, and most of his work with the talent is done. If the director casts an amateur with no skills or on-set experience...that's their fault.

quote:

You can do all the indie films you want, do 10, 20, 30 of them at the end of all that "on the job experience" do you think you''ll be a better actor?? Slightly, but not much. You will have just sunken deeper into your habits, your own physicality. But the craft? I don't think so.

Excuse me? lol. As if indie films are *less* of an art form than Broadway. As if you have to make it into Sundance to be taken seriously. Are you kidding me?

Every single production I've ever done has given me another tool I can later use in my career. Every single one. Like I said, you get out of it what you put into it.

Indie films (we're not talking backyard friend-made films here) are just as serious as a Hollywood film. You should put just as much effort into your work as you would if Spielberg were directing you. How anyone can look down upon independent film like this...and be so ignorant and insulting is beyond me.

Please don't take this posts and its tone incorrectly. I tend to write less diplomatically then I probably should. But understand that I'm honestly in great spirit when I voice my ideals and opinions.

Thank you kindly for listening.

quote:

Originally posted by amo37:
There are numerous actors with very little training. While I think everyone needs the building blocks, I don't agree with training just for the sake of training.

Could not agree more!!! You need to know WHY you are in training, what you are wanting to improve on, what you want to work on. If you have no idea why you're there and are just going because someone told you should always being in training, you're wasting your time.

Did anybody else who would like to be a represented union actor working in big budget film, TV and/or major theatre venues before they're approaching their mid-30s read Secret Agent Man's latest column, yet?

quote:

Remember, agents get 10 percent while you get 90 percent. So you have to work harder than us if you're going to succeed. That means staying in class, having great headshots, networking, doing well at auditions, and, most of all, being more than a name on your agent's list.

http://www.backstage.com/bso/a...ger-1004041891.story

I'm a little disappointed that nobody has brought up David Mamet, yet. I think he's the only credible source I've ever seen to the contrary. He's very anti drama school although he owns an expensive one. I guess he thinks Liev Schreiber won the "Best Supporting" Tony for his Richard Roma DESPITE his Yale MFA. Even he, in all his bluster, emphasizes a lot of work on the voice and body, though. He's apparently always yelling about "PERFECT DICTION!!!" Something else to think about if you think you've truly discovered and mastered your "acting technique." You might even pick up a few things that inform it ...

OF COURSE you're wasting your time in class if you don't know you have some things you need to improve on. All those highly successful actors who still study at The Actors Studio and take coaching from teachers like Chubbock, Fine, Esper et al. must know. Yes, I know there are exceptions. Some people always want to talk about the exceptions. Do you think you're one? If so, have at it. It's your career ...

Sounds like you are a victim and believer of 'having the right teacher and the right school on your resume will impress those in casting and make me the best actor.' Baloney. Embrace your inidviduality adn question everyone and everything. And we all know, awards are no measure of talent. I personally don't think Liev is that great of an actor.

I was reading about Tom Hanks. He went to a college for 2 years in Sacramento for acting, never graduated college, then he interned for 3 years at the Great Lakes Theatre Festival. That was his real training. No Actors Studio, no Bill Esper. Hanging lights, running sound, observing actors, etc. was his proving ground.

I was on theatre scholorship, and I too had to put in 50 hours a week in the shop, design lights, build flats, etc as well as take classes and do shows. I then did communty theatre, college theatre lived in a van touring cross country doing children's theatre, cruise ships, regional theatre, etc, etc. FInished my BA after 11 years of doing gigs on the road and around the world, studied in studios in LA, etc, etc. Best training for me? Reading books, actually doing the gigs and finding out who I was. Drawing from my life experiences.

I am a big believer it's not the training or the classes. It is simply the PRACTICE. You get better at anything with practice. If I practice my piano 2 hours a day I will get better. It's proven. I get better by DOING. Do I need a piano teacher to get better? Not really. I have the skills already and the building blocks. I just need to practice. Just as in acting. How do we practice acting? By acting. Anywhere, anyhow, anytime. Doesn't matter in what venue or with whom.

We don't care where people find their talent. We care about the product. Period. At the end of the day talent wins out. Spend too much time listening to what you 'should' do and who you 'should' study with and you will stop listening to the most important person of all. Yourself.

Have some balls to find what works for you. In the meantime, I am sure those famous teachers appreciate your cash.

quote:

Sounds like you are a victim and believer of 'having the right teacher and the right school on your resume will impress those in casting and make me the best actor.'

Nope. That's the unintended subtext I thought you were reading earlier. I never said a thing about "where" or "right." Just "somewhere" and it looks like I've got two guest star level agents and a successful CD backing me up. Common sense, as well. Practice is definitely part of the equation for me, too. I'm always in a play ...

quote:

I was reading about Tom Hanks. He went to a college for 2 years in Sacramento for acting, never graduated college, then he interned for 3 years at the Great Lakes Theatre Festival. That was his real training. No Actors Studio, no Bill Esper. Hanging lights, running sound, observing actors, etc. was his proving ground.

There you go trying to talk exceptions again, but bullshit. He's been studying at The Actors Studio for years. He apparently works with coaches as well.

quote:

Have some balls to find what works for you. In the meantime, I am sure those famous teachers appreciate your cash.

I was born without those although I've been blessed to be asked to play characters who do as a challenge and I've done a pretty good job so far of finding what works for me through working with a lot of different teachers and techniques. You'll probably be surprised to hear that I don't subscribe to any one "technique," either. Those are like a finger pointing at the moon. They are not the moon and, in fact, must disappear. Nobody gets any cash, either. Full scholarship although I know of some teachers I still want to work with where that won't be the case.

Why don't you have some balls and walk your talk? You pay cash from your temp job to study voice with Mat Eisenstein, don't you? Isn't that part of your craft as a musical theatre performer?

p.s. Liev could make you his bitch ...

....

I'm just going to skip reading all of the banter above me and just say this:

We all have our own methods of approach for acting. Some take a Meisner approach, others focus more on Hagen, or some don't even bother with technique, haven't taken a class in their life, and are complete naturals on camera. Whatever the case may be, one thing is for sure- You must do what is right for you.

An actor is an artist. An artist that is unwilling to listen or learn from others of his craft is no longer an artist, but an unreasonable human being just out to prove he is better than those around him.
Otherwise, why wouldn't you wish to learn from those with more wisdom? More insight? More knowledge?

Perhaps it is just me, but I do not believe in 'settling' to be a -good- actor. I aim to be great, to chase the end of this road that seems to roll on beyond the horizon. That is my feeling to acting.

Then again, that is just me.

Fishgurl, if you will read what I said, I have studied and never said I don't have a 'coach' from time to time. I have had 2 sessions with Mat Eisenstein over 2 years and I do that to obtain more material for auditions. A 'coach' is not the same as a 'teacher.' I don't need a 'teacher' for voice. Started lesseons for voice at 12. Now I'm 40. Dont believe me? Ask others on this board. I hardly think 2 sessions constitutes 'studying' with Mat Eisenstein.

My problem with your posts is that you seem to be brainwashed into thinking learning from a school or a 'name' teacher is what is needed to succeed. What you think is right for you, is not right for all. Your sweeping generalizations only reflect your age.

I got my info on Tom Hanks from Wikopedia. While it may not be 100% accurate info on that site, the last thing I ever post onthis site is 'bullshit.' Look for yourself.

If you want to sling mud, sling it at someone else. My posts are always meant to be helpful. And I admitted to studying. I am sure I have studied MUCH more than you.And I am sure I have MUCH more experience than you. Yest, I don't tell young people what works for them. You seem to have the answers. And I have studied with MASTER teachers, not 3rd generation teachers at The Actors Studio or another venue.

Moreover, the fact you know so much about me is disturbing. Stalker? Kind of scary.

Bottom line? You cannot generalize. That just shows your inexperience and youthful view which is inaccurate for most.